How do you collect so-called dollars?

#1 · June 30, 2011, 9:22 pm

Quote from bill on June 30, 2011, 9:22 pm
I'm working with Jeff on developing his new catalog(s) for so-called dollars. He certainly has his ideas of what that project will look like and I have mine (although I come at this as a topical collector who includes so-calleds among other tokens and medals as opposed to a strictly so-called collector). We will produce a new statement on the definition of so-called dollars by the time we have finished. I come from an old school of collecting (I've been at this for over 45 years now) and am guided by what interests me, by what makes me want to tell stories about the pieces I collect. I happen to believe that catalogs help facilitate and promote collecting by providing direction and organization. To that end, a catalog can make decisions for you or facilitate your own collecting definitions and enjoyment. I think it should do the latter and that means I need to know more about how you collect. Do you collect HK numbers, topics (expositions, sporting events, state anniversaries, etc), time periods, metals, art styles, etc? What would you find useful as organizing principles for a new so-called dollar catalog? How do you feel about retaining or dropping the traditional medals covered in HK versus a more strictly applied definition of what is in and out? How do feel about unlisted so-called dollars? There are many more "unlisted" items out there than will ultimately be included. We could err in the direction of including too few unlisteds or too many unlisteds. What would you find useful for your own collecting? Ultimately, the final decision will be Jeff's as senior author and publisher, and it is his project that springs from his years of experience as a collector and dealer, but I've found I have a strong voice at the table in collaborating on the Charbneau book. I think our final product was better because of our give and take. By participating in this discussion board, you have the opportunity to become a part of the give and take and help make the final product a better product to serve collectors (i.e. yourself). We have started discussing what we think we know about how you collect, but it would be better if we hear from you directly. So, how do you collect so-called dollars?

I'm working with Jeff on developing his new catalog(s) for so-called dollars. He certainly has his ideas of what that project will look like and I have mine (although I come at this as a topical collector who includes so-calleds among other tokens and medals as opposed to a strictly so-called collector). We will produce a new statement on the definition of so-called dollars by the time we have finished. I come from an old school of collecting (I've been at this for over 45 years now) and am guided by what interests me, by what makes me want to tell stories about the pieces I collect. I happen to believe that catalogs help facilitate and promote collecting by providing direction and organization. To that end, a catalog can make decisions for you or facilitate your own collecting definitions and enjoyment. I think it should do the latter and that means I need to know more about how you collect. Do you collect HK numbers, topics (expositions, sporting events, state anniversaries, etc), time periods, metals, art styles, etc? What would you find useful as organizing principles for a new so-called dollar catalog? How do you feel about retaining or dropping the traditional medals covered in HK versus a more strictly applied definition of what is in and out? How do feel about unlisted so-called dollars? There are many more "unlisted" items out there than will ultimately be included. We could err in the direction of including too few unlisteds or too many unlisteds. What would you find useful for your own collecting? Ultimately, the final decision will be Jeff's as senior author and publisher, and it is his project that springs from his years of experience as a collector and dealer, but I've found I have a strong voice at the table in collaborating on the Charbneau book. I think our final product was better because of our give and take. By participating in this discussion board, you have the opportunity to become a part of the give and take and help make the final product a better product to serve collectors (i.e. yourself). We have started discussing what we think we know about how you collect, but it would be better if we hear from you directly. So, how do you collect so-called dollars?

#2 · June 30, 2011, 11:17 pm

Well, I am no expert, but having originally started collecting US commems and then foreign coins (based on places I have lived), I collect items that (i) I have a personal connection with and (ii) that I think are artistically/historically worthwhile. I think we all base decisions on rarity, condition, and (perhaps) metal content, but for me, the artistry or uniqueness of a good design seems to be something I look for. As for collecting books, I appreciate concise yet interesting/relevant information accompanying the coin/medal -- perhaps with some references of where I can go IF I want to read more (so the book isn't 20 lbs). The better the "story," perhaps the more interesting the coin/medal. HK numbers per sae and metal types (eg. gold, silver) are less important to me. Adding some "unlisteds" that complete the "story" about an event is worthwhile, but too many examples of the same thing isn't ideal, especially if designs are poor. My efforts at expanding the SCDs into the modern era are at collecting medals in "John Dean's National Commem Medals of the US Mint book." Why? -- exactly the reasons above -- many good designs, rarity, interesting stories, etc. edited by rjesinger on 6/30/2011

#3 · July 1, 2011, 2:39 pm

Interesting question. I like the book being divided into different events. It allows collectors to narrow their focus if they so choose. Someone for instance may wish to concentrate on centennial pieces maybe someone else on columbian pieces etc. Also the way the current book is sectioned allows someone to concentarte on section I, II, III areas. There are many medals so by breaking the pie into smaller pieces I think collectability increases. As for unlisted types I would not include holed material and would list unlisted medals in the respective sections/events. I do not believe the definition needs expansion but perhaps better clarification. Just because a medal was in the original book but does not really fit the description, I would not remove it from a new book but I would not place more similar pieces into a new book. I don't think undoing the SCD's in the current book would be best. I think SCD's should be collected the same way someone may decide to collect silver dollars. They may decide to focus on Morgan Dollars or Peace Dollars or just collect nice pieces across the board. I think the book should enable a collector to assemble SCD's in a fashion consistant with what is important to the collectors. It could be rarity, metal type, event, section of the book, elder pieces etc. I think the current book format allows that to happen. Perhaps more sections if possible would be better. I think rarity in unc vs circulated should be noted in the new book as the hobby in general has shifted since the original book to a more two if not really three tier system re condition and rarity. Like it or not that is the reality. Circ, Unc, Gem could be the three conditions that rarity is listed at. For instance a McCormick SCD is relatively common but high grade pieces are much tougher to find. That's all from me at this time.

#4 · July 4, 2011, 11:33 am

After further thought here are some additional comments. Add a section that relates strictly to company medals. Another for famous people. The Heenan-sayers boxing bout would be with famous people instaed of Section I. Thew Wells Fargo piece would be placed into the company medal section. Same for the NY Stock Exchange piece., International Nickel, McCormick Reaper, etc.

#5 · July 13, 2011, 11:36 pm

I own one of the other so called dollar web sites(socalleddollar.com). Deciding what to put in and what to leave out is a very difficult problem. In the broadest sense, a so called dollar could be thought of as a medal that commemorates any sort of public or private event, person, or place on at least one side. Beyond what was included in HK, this might also include advertising pieces, coin club/numismatic medals, presidential birth/death medals, school/college medals, religious pieces, fraternal medals including GAR/Masonic pieces, and personal anniversary/marriage medals. And where does one stop. How about award medals, and even some of the Betts medals. Well, obviously SOMEONE has to make some decisions when it comes to publishing a new book or whatever. EVERYTHING can't be included, nor should it be. The problem with a book though is that it cannot be added to or changed without coming up with new additions all the time. The nice thing about a web site is that you can just keep adding to or changing it indefinitely. For me a new book will not decide with certainty what is or what is not a so called dollar. I am not sure that is possible anyway. It can only act as a guide with a lot of pictures and hopefully some historical information. Take strictly fraternal commemorative medals as an example. Generally speaking they usually do not even commemorate "public events". But just because a book does not include strictly fraternal medals does not mean that I will not collect them. In fact, there are many fraternal so called dollar size medals that are quite interesting, desirable and rare. One thing I will say. If a new book sways too far from HKs original themes, it may not be well received. And what would be the reason for not including virtually everything that was in the original book? Notice that I said "virtually" everything. And just which pieces would I eliminate? Well, let me think about it.

#6 · July 14, 2011, 1:22 pm

John, you make some good points. Once again I think collectors should look at SCD as a series instead of a singular collection. Within the series a collector may choose to specialize. So a volume of books may be a better approach than a singular book. For instance Volume I - Expositions Volume II - Local Celebrations Volume III - National Celebrations Volume IV - Corporate Anniversaries Volume V - Fraternal SCD Volume VI - Gar SCD This sytsem would permit future expansion and yet allow collectors to focus on particular areas of interest. Just a thought.

#7 · July 22, 2011, 10:20 pm

Quote from nov81969 on July 22, 2011, 10:20 pm
lets face it, SCDs are so interesting, regardless of any book or script or publication. the true essence is to hold the coin, token, medal, etc in our hands, within our fingers and study it first with the naked eye, and then with some type of magnifier, studying the rich detail of each individual piece. and, then, to be able to connect the piece to its historical significance, its purpose, its symbolism, its story, and that is where the books or the internet websites play a role. the problem is, if it aint in the book, a lot of people sway from even considering its value or desirability. the books are limiting unless they are all encompassing. SCDs need definitions as do coins and other pieces of numismatic or exonumic metals. the books can provide definitions, but they should not be providing exclusions within the definitions. there are so many medals that are the sizesof standard SCDs yet they are unlisted anywhere, so does that mean they are missing significance or importance in the annals of collecting? the books can limit our comprehension of what belongs in the SCD group and what doesnt belong. of course, size does matter, because there are limitations to the sizes of SCDs, hence the name So Called Dollar, but do so called dollars need to stop in the early 60s, as is the case with HK guide? why the limit? the truth is, books and volumes of books can become too large. most SCD collectors have moved into the modern age, and peruse all the so called websites and read the literature online, myself included. i personally dont own any of the books, simply because i have no room, and secondarily because i have the internet. the website approach is the most simple and cost effective and all-encompassing way to expand the story of SCDs. everyone collects them differently. of the hundreds of SCDs i have collected, i can say, i have no particular theme, but i prefer to search for SCDs by event or date. i do research about an expo or something historical, something that interests myself, and then i check the listings to see if there are any SCDs corresponding to that particular event. and, of course, some events direct me to one or two SCDs, while others, such as the 1876 centennial, direct me to tens of SCDs. however, we are depriving ourselves if we only collect specific events or expos or themes, becuase the range of themes is otherworldly. there is so much to choose from, yet we tend to limit our own tastes, likes and desires by ascribing to the confines and limitations of books and publications. as the old addage states, if it aint in the book, then it isnt important or it isnt noteworthy or it isnt of historical significance. if it aint in the book, then it musnt be a SCD. truthfully, the hk guide cannot be the bible of SCD collecting. it should be just one resource in an ocean of resources. there are literally tens of thousands of SCDs, but most fall beneath the radar and are excluded from the playing field because they werent included in the hk guide nearly 50 years ago! the technology and amount of numismatic information has mushroomed due to the internet and individual ambition, yet the guides are living in the past, practically dinosaurs to the digital age. because we have been heralding one or two books around as bibles for decades. it is time to open the flood gates, and allow the SCDs to wash over ourselves! there needs to be limitations, but they do not need to be limiting the potential breadth, scope and significance of SCDs and their importance to the history of the western world. SCDs are here to stay, and there is no stopping the true avid collector of exonumia. nothing will stop us from collecting what we want to collect, unlisted or listed. nothing with stop our desires and interests in the world of SCDs. nothing will stop my curiosity for the unusal, bizarre, first of its kind, or one of a kind SCDs or tokens, medals and other pieces that resemble SCDs but have never been recognized or accepted into the world of the so called dollar. the online guide is the path to take. as already stated, it can be amended, corrected, adjusted and expanded in quick and easy steps, and this is the world we live in now, so welcome it, even if we are luddites and we want to remember the good old days when our great country, the US of A, celebrated its history and praised its accomplishments and recorded its purpose throughout time. SCDs, if anything, remind us of our potential and who we once were, and how great we once were, and how great we could be. SCDs have recorded, enhanced and demonstrated man's ability to conquer the forces of nature, humanity and industry. SCDs have recorded the history of the western world, all its triumphs and accomplishments, and it is up to us, the collectors, to make certain that we cannot forget about our past, our heritage, our greatness, our role in designing the modern world and forming the foundation for the future of mankind. SCDs celebrated greatness and beauty. innovation and feats. memorials and expositions and celebrations of history. SCDs defined all aspects of western history and prominence. SCDs are glorious and should be celebrated and cherished as much as any historical artifact...as i always say, in SCDs we trust, because in the world of exonumia, god comes second to the so called dollar...

lets face it, SCDs are so interesting, regardless of any book or script or publication. the true essence is to hold the coin, token, medal, etc in our hands, within our fingers and study it first with the naked eye, and then with some type of magnifier, studying the rich detail of each individual piece. and, then, to be able to connect the piece to its historical significance, its purpose, its symbolism, its story, and that is where the books or the internet websites play a role. the problem is, if it aint in the book, a lot of people sway from even considering its value or desirability. the books are limiting unless they are all encompassing. SCDs need definitions as do coins and other pieces of numismatic or exonumic metals. the books can provide definitions, but they should not be providing exclusions within the definitions. there are so many medals that are the sizesof standard SCDs yet they are unlisted anywhere, so does that mean they are missing significance or importance in the annals of collecting? the books can limit our comprehension of what belongs in the SCD group and what doesnt belong. of course, size does matter, because there are limitations to the sizes of SCDs, hence the name So Called Dollar, but do so called dollars need to stop in the early 60s, as is the case with HK guide? why the limit? the truth is, books and volumes of books can become too large. most SCD collectors have moved into the modern age, and peruse all the so called websites and read the literature online, myself included. i personally dont own any of the books, simply because i have no room, and secondarily because i have the internet. the website approach is the most simple and cost effective and all-encompassing way to expand the story of SCDs. everyone collects them differently. of the hundreds of SCDs i have collected, i can say, i have no particular theme, but i prefer to search for SCDs by event or date. i do research about an expo or something historical, something that interests myself, and then i check the listings to see if there are any SCDs corresponding to that particular event. and, of course, some events direct me to one or two SCDs, while others, such as the 1876 centennial, direct me to tens of SCDs. however, we are depriving ourselves if we only collect specific events or expos or themes, becuase the range of themes is otherworldly. there is so much to choose from, yet we tend to limit our own tastes, likes and desires by ascribing to the confines and limitations of books and publications. as the old addage states, if it aint in the book, then it isnt important or it isnt noteworthy or it isnt of historical significance. if it aint in the book, then it musnt be a SCD. truthfully, the hk guide cannot be the bible of SCD collecting. it should be just one resource in an ocean of resources. there are literally tens of thousands of SCDs, but most fall beneath the radar and are excluded from the playing field because they werent included in the hk guide nearly 50 years ago! the technology and amount of numismatic information has mushroomed due to the internet and individual ambition, yet the guides are living in the past, practically dinosaurs to the digital age. because we have been heralding one or two books around as bibles for decades. it is time to open the flood gates, and allow the SCDs to wash over ourselves! there needs to be limitations, but they do not need to be limiting the potential breadth, scope and significance of SCDs and their importance to the history of the western world. SCDs are here to stay, and there is no stopping the true avid collector of exonumia. nothing will stop us from collecting what we want to collect, unlisted or listed. nothing with stop our desires and interests in the world of SCDs. nothing will stop my curiosity for the unusal, bizarre, first of its kind, or one of a kind SCDs or tokens, medals and other pieces that resemble SCDs but have never been recognized or accepted into the world of the so called dollar. the online guide is the path to take. as already stated, it can be amended, corrected, adjusted and expanded in quick and easy steps, and this is the world we live in now, so welcome it, even if we are luddites and we want to remember the good old days when our great country, the US of A, celebrated its history and praised its accomplishments and recorded its purpose throughout time. SCDs, if anything, remind us of our potential and who we once were, and how great we once were, and how great we could be. SCDs have recorded, enhanced and demonstrated man's ability to conquer the forces of nature, humanity and industry. SCDs have recorded the history of the western world, all its triumphs and accomplishments, and it is up to us, the collectors, to make certain that we cannot forget about our past, our heritage, our greatness, our role in designing the modern world and forming the foundation for the future of mankind. SCDs celebrated greatness and beauty. innovation and feats. memorials and expositions and celebrations of history. SCDs defined all aspects of western history and prominence. SCDs are glorious and should be celebrated and cherished as much as any historical artifact...as i always say, in SCDs we trust, because in the world of exonumia, god comes second to the so called dollar...

#8 · August 2, 2011, 4:56 pm

The direction Bill and I are seriously considering for the new So-Called Dollar book is two separate volumes with one comprehensive numbering system. Volume one would be all fairs and exposition related pieces, volume two would be all others. Each volume would be in date sequence. The numbering system will be open for each exposition or decade of medals which will allow for including new discoveries without changing previous numbers. Your thoughts???

#9 · August 14, 2011, 3:01 pm

Quote from dlrfc on August 14, 2011, 3:01 pm
I am not sure I really have a direction for what type of book(s) I would or wouldn't want to see for SCD. I know I moved into them due to reasonable pricing (although that changed real fast) and especially historic significance. I collect SCD based on places I have visited or lived in; events that always fascinated me and then and most important the artistic design of the SCD. If to me the design is "ugly" I won't collect it even if it is historically significant. Thus what order to put the book in - maybe by year. Also would like to see the books final pricing reasonable - I have the original book (price really dropped once new SCD book came out) and the new edition. Both are helpful but I would like a expanded section on historic significance of the event. In both books this is lacking. But if you did it for each medal it would really be a thick volume or two or three but to me at least very worth while purchasing. Also any variations of SCD for each one would be helpful - I don't know sometimes if a SCD comes holed or not and the signifcance of that. Pricing is always a concern and rarity scale helps although not to a great extent (I am not sure that present refernce books really have the true rarity). Maybe at the end of each HK discription have auction (maybe 3 or so) prices from most recent sales. I have reference books (patterns) that do that. Again biggest thing that would get me to purchase a new book is that it have a in depth discription of the event commemorated - i.e not just a general idea but very specific such as for HK 120: Massacre by indians...in commemoration of battle and massacre of wyoming is a good start BUT: tell me about the battle and was there any significance of battl. That is why it occurred etc: On July 3 1778 a contingent of about 300 american militia met a much larger invading army of british regulars.... American militia were overwhelmed and retreated in panic....and what outcome was etc). This would be more interesting to me.

I am not sure I really have a direction for what type of book(s) I would or wouldn't want to see for SCD. I know I moved into them due to reasonable pricing (although that changed real fast) and especially historic significance. I collect SCD based on places I have visited or lived in; events that always fascinated me and then and most important the artistic design of the SCD. If to me the design is "ugly" I won't collect it even if it is historically significant. Thus what order to put the book in - maybe by year. Also would like to see the books final pricing reasonable - I have the original book (price really dropped once new SCD book came out) and the new edition. Both are helpful but I would like a expanded section on historic significance of the event. In both books this is lacking. But if you did it for each medal it would really be a thick volume or two or three but to me at least very worth while purchasing. Also any variations of SCD for each one would be helpful - I don't know sometimes if a SCD comes holed or not and the signifcance of that. Pricing is always a concern and rarity scale helps although not to a great extent (I am not sure that present refernce books really have the true rarity). Maybe at the end of each HK discription have auction (maybe 3 or so) prices from most recent sales. I have reference books (patterns) that do that. Again biggest thing that would get me to purchase a new book is that it have a in depth discription of the event commemorated - i.e not just a general idea but very specific such as for HK 120: Massacre by indians...in commemoration of battle and massacre of wyoming is a good start BUT: tell me about the battle and was there any significance of battl. That is why it occurred etc: On July 3 1778 a contingent of about 300 american militia met a much larger invading army of british regulars.... American militia were overwhelmed and retreated in panic....and what outcome was etc). This would be more interesting to me.

#10 · August 24, 2011, 9:21 pm

Hello Jeff and others ! Was great talking to you in Chgo. Anyway .. I've joined the group .. will be looking forward to see comments and news on SCD's. How do I collect ? I use to collect just about any SCD .. now only: Lesher Dollars Pedley-Ryan/Colo Dollars M.E. Hart Gold $50 Slug Facsimiles plus a few other mining related SCD's take care ! .. tj

So-Called Dollar Discussions

How do you collect so-called dollars?