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IS THERE A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH NGC CENSUS??

As a serious collector of So Called Dollars of both rarities and high grade I rely on NGC Census to help determine my amounts for bids on ebay, auctions, buy it now and for outright purchases. Last week there was an ebay SCD listed as NGC MS-66. When I checked NGC Census there were three listed as graded the highest being MS-63. Last year in cataloguing my collection I found four SCD's not listed in the Census. 68 days later after weekly/bi-weekly phone calls I finally got the last one listed in the Census figures. Last week doing an updating to my cataloguing for my recent additions I found three more which were not in the NGC Census figures. Now I am starting to think John Raymonds site is the most accurate and useful. SPECIFICS: 1. A random check of the the last Osheimer Sale showed several not listed in the Census. I was high bidder on HK-904 which was an NGC graded MS-62. NGC Census still shows only one graded by them and is an AU-58. 2. I had the pleasure of having lunch with Bob, Jeff and Bill last week. I have the only graded Utah Peach Day HK- 653a in NGC Census and it is an AU58 NGC grade. At our luncheon Bob shared with us a Utah Peach Day HK-653a graded by NGC at MS-62. 3. Bob is a regular contributor to this discussion forum. I also have the only Grant HK-768a listed by NGC Census. It is a beautiful chocolate brown MS-65. Yet if you check this discussion forum for Grant SCD's Bob has posted a picture for us of an NGC graded HK-768a at MS-66 in it's slab. There is no question at all about these pieces being genuine and legitimate and accurately graded NGC SCD's. I am only one small time So Called Dollar collector as far as quantities go but if I have the problem shouldn't many of you out there be having the same problem? All of us take a great deal of pride with bragging rights of having "THE HIGHEST GRADED" "THE ONLY GRADED" etc. and pay quite a premium sometimes. Yet it appears to me that with like 12,000 graded items by NGC there may be hundreds maybe even thousands of NGC graded SCD's not included in the NGC Census. I have no solutions only observations but when I was 68 days on the phone with NGC they said their flow chart for work is that the NGC grader upon completion of grading an order submission must (sic) assign a coded series of numbers to each SCD graded. These codes must them be put into the NGC Census by an imput operator. Failure to give her codes or giving her incomplete codes results in the SCD's being shipped back to the submitter without inclusion in the NGC Census. It happens quite frequently due to submitters wanting their submissions back according to the agreed upon turn around time. They also do the Census imputs on Mondays ONLY and there usually is no going back. Anyone else noticed this problem or have any comments? Thank you John Raymond!! Have never had a problem or question of validity when I use your site.

Oscar Manurestead has reacted to this post.
Oscar Manurestead

I have come to the recent conclusion that NGC really doesn't care much about medals and tokens. Recently they decided to stop grading many medals that they had routinely done before. They did this without any advance warning, without any consultation with collectors. I had signed up for the premium service because of the amount of medals I submit, when they reduced the types of medals they encapsulated I called and got a refund on the higher price for premium service. I have expressed my disgust at their handing of the medal/token situation on several occasions. They have no explanations or logocal responses. First their turn around times are a joke. Their grading is inconsistant. Now as for the census, it was not maintained properly from the start. I know this from experience from the beginning, as I have medals from early on that do not appear in the census. I have an HK-19 in Proof 64, which is accurate in my opinion and it has never shown in the population report. I have had the medal close to 10 years. I have other that do not appear also.It seems to me that if NGC is going to publish a census, it should be accurate. Isn't adding items to the census part of why we pay the grading fee? So isn't a failure to enter grades into the database mean we are being short changed? And yes, we make purchasing decisions based on the census which NGC touts, publishes and in the case of coins uses it for registry sets. Knowing this is how census info is used, and given their disregard for accuracy one can in my opinion only conclude they really don't give a damn. They take our money without providing the full range of services they provide for coin collectors. Let me ask, why after all these years is their not a registry set for so-called dollars??? They have them for foreign coins, california fractional gold, but not for any medals, so-called, baker, dewitt etc. Shouldn't after taking our money for all these years, they have gotten around to creating a registry set for some of the medal series they have been grading, if not all. So they charge us the same fees as they do for coin collectors, but we don't get the same services, no registry, inaccurate census, and now they stopped grading alot of series. Even their forum, is their one for medal and token collectors?????NO. I personally have gotten after them about these issues, and they have been non-responsive. It would be nice if through some medium we (medal/token) collectors could band together together to get after NGC. If they are going to be non-responsive we should as a group approach one of the other grading firms ie PCGS, ICG, ANACS if they would be interested in our business. Perhaps this could be done through TAMS. Perhaps TAMS could select one upon agreement and secure discounted pricing. If evryone jumped off NGC and went to the other grading company it would seem like a very big marketing win for the other, especially if it were ANACS or ICGS. Just the thought of this might shake up NGC. How would NGC like to read in print ICG the official grading company for TAMS!!!!!! What do you and others think?

Oscar Manurestead has reacted to this post.
Oscar Manurestead

mely TAMS (Token and Medal Society) were to step forward and pick one of the other major grading services (i.e. PCGS, ANACS, ICG) as their graders of choice, it would have a great impact on the hobby and maybe wake up NGC , maybe?? This needs to be brought to the attention of the ANA, NGC and the other grading services, and TAMS to make any headway in getting this off of dead center. Let's keep this moving.

Oscar Manurestead has reacted to this post.
Oscar Manurestead

Engineer, I agree with you completely. NGC is not supporting the medals and tokens collectors, but yet very willing to take our monies. Their Census has always been off. I too have many not correctly listed in the Census and some not listed at all, yet I have it in their slab? There is no consistency in what they have now decided they will or will not grade. They grade non-mint medals (Heraldic Arts, etc.) but will not grade National Commemorative medals. My biggest bone to pick, is that I own medals of particular series, which they had graded in the past but now don't. How is one to complete/pursue their collection if they now will not slab them at all. The Thomas Elder series of medals, many are so-called dollars, but many are not and will not classify as so-called dollars, are no longer slabbed by them. I have many slabbed, yet many I cannot now get slabbed. Not only is NGC damaging the hobby, in my opinion, but the ANA has just renewed their assocaiation with them as being the grading service of choice. Now I am concerned that t he ANA is not supporting medals either. They should take heed and put pressure on NGC to restore the grading of items that they have previously done. I agree that if an organization with the clout for medal collectors, n

I am so teed off wiith the treatment of medal and token collectors by NGC I am going to write a letter and post it to this site for others to download and send off to NGC. I hesitate to put my name to it since NGC may blackball me. And as a member of the ANA I am going to write them a letter also. Given the actions of NGC why did the ANA continue with NGC? Are they not supposed to be working for the collectors???? IT is time for token and medal collectors to join together and be heard. We should not allow ourselves to be treated as second class citizens. Last I looked NGC wasn't giving us a discount! It is time for collector organizations to stand up for collectors, we are afterall the hobby, without us there is no hobby, no NGC etc. Time to hear from others on this site, time to get pro-active, time to have our voices heard.

The NGC census is unfortunately NOT accurate; attached are some images of my recent purchase of an HK-707 in MS-61 from an expert SoCalled Dollar collector. Jeff sold one of these pieces in MS-60 grade (Ostheimer collection), but it's not in the NGC census. Perhaps the NGC census didn't include older graded coins? I guess we should all be wary of NGC as a source of rarity info. I'd trust past auction results as catalogued in the Small Forest Guide (http://www.medalzine.com) and/or John Raymond's site (http://www.socalleddollar.com). Best if we all just check with better resouces and/or e-mail each other and/or post on this site for assurance.

I HAVE NOTICED THAT MOST IF NOT ALL OF THE JOHN J. FORD COLLECTION PEDIGREED ITEMS ARE NOT LISTED IN THE CENSUS. ALSO SOME OF THE OSTHEIMER COLLECTION ITEMS ARE NOT LISTED IN THE CENSUS.

I HAVE SPOKEN TO LAURYNN DAVIS AT NGC ABOUT THIS IN THE PAST. I HAVE SENT HER CERTIFICATION #'S FOR SOME OF MY NGC GRADED MEDALS (SO-CALLED DOLLARS AND OTHER MEDAL TYPES) THAT WERE NOT LISTED IN THE CENSUS, ESPECIALLY IF THEY WERE VERY RARE OR TOP POPS, AND SHE HAS ALWAYS MANAGED TO GET THEM POSTED IN THE CENSUS UNLESS THEY WERE A MEDAL TYPE THAT IS NOT CATALOGUED IN THE CENSUS FOR SOME REASON.

Oscar Manurestead has reacted to this post.
Oscar Manurestead

Thanks to all the previous collectors / posters on this thread who have noted their problems getting their medals properly labeled by grading companies.

This subject of grading companies and their lack of consideration of the  So-Called Dollar branch of Numismatics has kept me from submitting my raw SCD’s for grading since first reading this thread years ago. When long time collectors with money and published authors question the servicing of a company(s) to adapt to their customer’s needs and expanding their services, this tightwad collector will not consider any submissions. I will continue to purchase graded medals but will not submit my raw medals for grading until the companies adopt and advertise new So-Called Dollar and medallion typing procedures.

billycgribble has reacted to this post.
billycgribble

It is true that there are many So-Called Dollars that have been certified by NGC that are not in their census. As a long time submitter I know that years ago NGC would occasionally not catalog a group of SCD's that were submitted. I do believe, and have noticed, that in the past five years they are much more likely to keep their census updated accurately. The census was considered an ancillary benefit, but as it has become more important, the grading firms have been doing a better job of maintaining their censuses.