So-Called Dollar Discussions
Plated so called dollars
Quote from jraymond on November 8, 2011, 12:57 pmI was wondering if I could open up a discussion here about plated so called dollars. It is a topic that I really do not know enough about. When looking through old sales catalogs like I have done, I have run across descriptions of plated pieces and solid metal pieces and have often wondered how the seller could tell for sure one way or another. Just how good is specific gravity testing in telling the difference? What are the various ways one can tell? Another thing that I am curious about what happens when a plated planchet is struck. It would seem to me that with metal flow and all, that the underlying metal might come through in places. Just how thick does the plating have to be prior to striking? I have seen lightly plated silver pieces in old catalogs described as having a "silver wash". Such lightly "washed" pieces generally must have been plated after striking. Any knowledge would be appreciated. JR
I was wondering if I could open up a discussion here about plated so called dollars. It is a topic that I really do not know enough about. When looking through old sales catalogs like I have done, I have run across descriptions of plated pieces and solid metal pieces and have often wondered how the seller could tell for sure one way or another. Just how good is specific gravity testing in telling the difference? What are the various ways one can tell? Another thing that I am curious about what happens when a plated planchet is struck. It would seem to me that with metal flow and all, that the underlying metal might come through in places. Just how thick does the plating have to be prior to striking? I have seen lightly plated silver pieces in old catalogs described as having a "silver wash". Such lightly "washed" pieces generally must have been plated after striking. Any knowledge would be appreciated. JR
Quote from bill on November 9, 2011, 12:33 amAn interesting subject that Jeff and I have been discussing and debating as we work on the next book. Its late and I'm on the road for the next week, but I would love to engage this discussion. For now, a few quick thoughts: Specific gravity is helpful, but not always conclusive. Copper / brass / bronze all have overlapping specific gravities, so it doesn't help much with distinguishing between them. Low percentage silver content might fall into the same region. 800 or 900 fine silver or better should be easily distinguished with specific gravity. Before turning to specific gravity, however, a simple weight test will distinguish a brass piece, from a silver-plated brass piece, from a silver piece. This only works if the medal appears in brass (or bronze or copper, or similar) and silver (or gold). A plated piece will weigh virtually the same as an unplated piece. Plating techniques do not require a lot of the metal to be deposited to achieve the plating. It just so happens that we weighed lots of pieces last week, so we have some experience with this. A silver piece needs to be heavier than the standard deviation of a number of pieces of the known composition to be sure it is different. For a typical so-called dollar, this seems to be at least .5 gram heavier that expected, although we really need more data to begin to specify a general cutoff point. Jeff is certain some planchets were plated before striking. I don't know if I agree with him, but I've examined the pieces he believes were plated before striking and I cannot say he is wrong. On some, I'm comfortable that they were plated after striking. On others, I would have to agree with his assessment as he believes the flow lines present in the plating could only appear during striking under pressure. We asked at Medallic Art and we were told plated planchets would be more likely to have the plating disturbed during striking as you mention. They plate after striking. We did not have the opportunity to compare plated and unplate samples of the same medal. Perhaps we will have that opportunity one day and see a difference (or not). Another topic is gold-plated versus gilt. I think the terms are used willy-nilly. We are trying to develop some consistency in how we use the terms, but it is not easy. As I understand them, plating is a process using electric current to deposit the gold or silver. Gilting is a chemical process used to deposit the gold or silver and is the process that would create what is known as a gold or silver wash. I'm happy to have someone who knows more correct my understanding. Weights are really important in this discussion and specific gravity comes into play if you have a "solver" or "gold" piece with no comparative medal struck in another metal. Once a piece has been slabbed, you are at a loss without breaking the piece out. One good example are the silver San Francisco earthquake medals. It is questionable as to whether any of the clock-tower varieties were ever struck in silver. I have one slabbed as silver-plated. I broke it out and it weighs the same as the copper/bronze/brass examples. I have another one slabbed as silver. I broke it out and it weighs the same. All have approximately the same specific gravity. Jeff has a non-clock tower "silver" piece that is heavier than the brass examples. I ran a specific gravity test on that piece. It definitely has a higher specific gravity than pure copper (which is higher than brass or bronze), but less that 750/800/900 fine silver. So, I suspect it is silver, but more like 500 or 600 fine. My brief contribution in the hopes of sparking a conversation with someone who knows more than I do or has more examples to study, weigh, etc. and contribute to a database that might help us develop better techniques for making the proper calls. Now, it they started including weights on slabs, it would really help.
An interesting subject that Jeff and I have been discussing and debating as we work on the next book. Its late and I'm on the road for the next week, but I would love to engage this discussion. For now, a few quick thoughts: Specific gravity is helpful, but not always conclusive. Copper / brass / bronze all have overlapping specific gravities, so it doesn't help much with distinguishing between them. Low percentage silver content might fall into the same region. 800 or 900 fine silver or better should be easily distinguished with specific gravity. Before turning to specific gravity, however, a simple weight test will distinguish a brass piece, from a silver-plated brass piece, from a silver piece. This only works if the medal appears in brass (or bronze or copper, or similar) and silver (or gold). A plated piece will weigh virtually the same as an unplated piece. Plating techniques do not require a lot of the metal to be deposited to achieve the plating. It just so happens that we weighed lots of pieces last week, so we have some experience with this. A silver piece needs to be heavier than the standard deviation of a number of pieces of the known composition to be sure it is different. For a typical so-called dollar, this seems to be at least .5 gram heavier that expected, although we really need more data to begin to specify a general cutoff point. Jeff is certain some planchets were plated before striking. I don't know if I agree with him, but I've examined the pieces he believes were plated before striking and I cannot say he is wrong. On some, I'm comfortable that they were plated after striking. On others, I would have to agree with his assessment as he believes the flow lines present in the plating could only appear during striking under pressure. We asked at Medallic Art and we were told plated planchets would be more likely to have the plating disturbed during striking as you mention. They plate after striking. We did not have the opportunity to compare plated and unplate samples of the same medal. Perhaps we will have that opportunity one day and see a difference (or not). Another topic is gold-plated versus gilt. I think the terms are used willy-nilly. We are trying to develop some consistency in how we use the terms, but it is not easy. As I understand them, plating is a process using electric current to deposit the gold or silver. Gilting is a chemical process used to deposit the gold or silver and is the process that would create what is known as a gold or silver wash. I'm happy to have someone who knows more correct my understanding. Weights are really important in this discussion and specific gravity comes into play if you have a "solver" or "gold" piece with no comparative medal struck in another metal. Once a piece has been slabbed, you are at a loss without breaking the piece out. One good example are the silver San Francisco earthquake medals. It is questionable as to whether any of the clock-tower varieties were ever struck in silver. I have one slabbed as silver-plated. I broke it out and it weighs the same as the copper/bronze/brass examples. I have another one slabbed as silver. I broke it out and it weighs the same. All have approximately the same specific gravity. Jeff has a non-clock tower "silver" piece that is heavier than the brass examples. I ran a specific gravity test on that piece. It definitely has a higher specific gravity than pure copper (which is higher than brass or bronze), but less that 750/800/900 fine silver. So, I suspect it is silver, but more like 500 or 600 fine. My brief contribution in the hopes of sparking a conversation with someone who knows more than I do or has more examples to study, weigh, etc. and contribute to a database that might help us develop better techniques for making the proper calls. Now, it they started including weights on slabs, it would really help.
Quote from jraymond on November 10, 2011, 1:05 pmThanks Bill, that is good info. I personally have never done any specific gravity testing. I have just never gotten around to it. But let me tell you a couple of my observations. First of all let me quote myself from my own web site with regard to Exhibition Palace Dollars from the World Columbian Expo in silver plate: ?Another area of confusion is whether some Exhibition Palace Dollars exist in solid silver, or if all are in fact silver plate. There is no question that many, if not all exist in silver plate. I have a silver plated example in uncirculated condition where a large patch of plating has completely come off revealing the underlying metal. If it was not for the plating coming off, it could very easily pass for solid silver. The plated Palace dollars that I have seen look as if the plating were applied to the planchets prior to striking. The William Hale collection of Columbian Expo medals sold by Charles Kirtley on October 14, 1989 lists a number of Exhibition Palace dollars in both silver, and what he describes as "silver washed brass". It is possible that those he described as silver were in fact silver plate, and that the ones he described as "silver washed brass" were pieces that were more lightly silvered after striking. Also, in the HK 1st edition, a few Exhibition Palace dollars were listed as being silver, but none listed as silver plate. As we know that many if not all exist in silver plate, this leads to the strong possibility that those listed as silver were also in fact all silver plate. Also, in 1992, Tony Swicer sold a number of Exhibition Palace dollars. He described two as being silver, but none were listed as silver plate. Once again, those that he listed in silver may have been plated.? At the edges of where the patch of silver on the piece described above has come off, you can see the plating is certainly thicker than a ?wash?. When you look at these silver plated pieces, they sure look as if they were plated prior to striking. I have a Wilson dollar that I bought a few years ago that is gold plated. If you look closely at the piece, you can see a certain graininess to the surfaces(sort of matte-like). There is a bag mark on the piece, and sure enough that grainy quality extends down into the bag mark, so obviously the piece was plated after it was struck, probably to fool someone into believing it was a gold piece, but the overall appearance of the piece is not all that convincing. You mention that you contacted Medallic Art and they said that they plate after striking. That would tend to mean that maybe ALL plated pieces are plated after striking. How on earth though could you plate a piece with a thick plating, and still maintain the same sharpness of detail? How would the flow lines in the metal be maintained in such detail? It would seem to me that the details of the design would get a bit mushy with a thick plating. It would be nice to have someone at Medallic Art look at some nicely detailed plated pieces and ask them how sharp details can be maintained when applying a thick plating. And could it be that minters years ago had different methods that are not used today? Anyway, thanks again for the info.
Thanks Bill, that is good info. I personally have never done any specific gravity testing. I have just never gotten around to it. But let me tell you a couple of my observations. First of all let me quote myself from my own web site with regard to Exhibition Palace Dollars from the World Columbian Expo in silver plate: ?Another area of confusion is whether some Exhibition Palace Dollars exist in solid silver, or if all are in fact silver plate. There is no question that many, if not all exist in silver plate. I have a silver plated example in uncirculated condition where a large patch of plating has completely come off revealing the underlying metal. If it was not for the plating coming off, it could very easily pass for solid silver. The plated Palace dollars that I have seen look as if the plating were applied to the planchets prior to striking. The William Hale collection of Columbian Expo medals sold by Charles Kirtley on October 14, 1989 lists a number of Exhibition Palace dollars in both silver, and what he describes as "silver washed brass". It is possible that those he described as silver were in fact silver plate, and that the ones he described as "silver washed brass" were pieces that were more lightly silvered after striking. Also, in the HK 1st edition, a few Exhibition Palace dollars were listed as being silver, but none listed as silver plate. As we know that many if not all exist in silver plate, this leads to the strong possibility that those listed as silver were also in fact all silver plate. Also, in 1992, Tony Swicer sold a number of Exhibition Palace dollars. He described two as being silver, but none were listed as silver plate. Once again, those that he listed in silver may have been plated.? At the edges of where the patch of silver on the piece described above has come off, you can see the plating is certainly thicker than a ?wash?. When you look at these silver plated pieces, they sure look as if they were plated prior to striking. I have a Wilson dollar that I bought a few years ago that is gold plated. If you look closely at the piece, you can see a certain graininess to the surfaces(sort of matte-like). There is a bag mark on the piece, and sure enough that grainy quality extends down into the bag mark, so obviously the piece was plated after it was struck, probably to fool someone into believing it was a gold piece, but the overall appearance of the piece is not all that convincing. You mention that you contacted Medallic Art and they said that they plate after striking. That would tend to mean that maybe ALL plated pieces are plated after striking. How on earth though could you plate a piece with a thick plating, and still maintain the same sharpness of detail? How would the flow lines in the metal be maintained in such detail? It would seem to me that the details of the design would get a bit mushy with a thick plating. It would be nice to have someone at Medallic Art look at some nicely detailed plated pieces and ask them how sharp details can be maintained when applying a thick plating. And could it be that minters years ago had different methods that are not used today? Anyway, thanks again for the info.